Vintage versus Modern

Well, we've potentially got a very exciting video for you today, because we're going to discuss the very topical topic—really, in saxophone geeky terms—of vintage saxophones versus modern saxophones.

And with me to discuss this, I'm joined by Jamie Anderson, professional sax player who has his own excellent channel, "Get Your Sax Together."

We were actually doing a video earlier today, so we're nicely warmed up for this.

So thanks for joining us, Jamie. Thanks for having me.

Delighted to be here, as always. Great stuff.

So we're going to get into this today, go through the traits, and the reasons why you might want to have a modern saxophone.

Same thing for a vintage instrument: we're going to do a bit of demonstrating, and I'm going to kick things off by demoing my own modern sax versus a vintage one.

So we're going to kick things off with talking to Jamie about his choice of saxophone.

So Jamie plays a Mark VI saxophone.

It's not actually this one; this is a fine 1974 Mark VI that we happen to have in the shop, which we will be demonstrating later.

But why, Jamie? Why did you choose a Mark VI to play on?

Well, that's a really good question, and I don't think there was as much thought behind it as you might imagine.

I was about 16 years old, I had a cheap— I think it might have been a Yamaha or something at the time— and I was getting a bit more serious.

I was practicing, starting to think about college, and my— this is going to show my age now— my mum saw this saxophone I'd placed in the paper.

Okay. This was pre-internet.

And we went to this fella's house, and there it was, and I played it, and I thought, you know, it was fantastic. So we bought it there and then.

And actually, it was— probably we'll talk about the investment side of things at some point today— but it was only £1,200 then.

Right. And it's worth considerably more now. Sure.

But at the time, that was a lot of money for a saxophone, considering my first one was probably £200 or £300.

And the guy who demonstrated it played it first, and he sounded fantastic. Right.

And I was blown away. And I used to love— Mike Brecker still do— and of course he played a Mark VI, so I thought, oh, I'm going to get the same sax as Mike Brecker.

This is fantastic. Okay. Yes. That is always a good rationale for choosing one saxophone.

So we'll get into that a little bit more later on.

Briefly, my rationale for choosing a modern sax— so my instrument, just sitting there just off camera— is the Andy Shepherd Autograph sax.

I mean, you guys should know that, right, if you follow our videos.

But anyway, it is a slightly, kind of, left-field choice of modern sax.

It's not a Yamaha or a Yanagawa, one of the really known brands, but it's made by the same people who do the Trevor James Signature Custom Instruments, and it was a sort of side project.

They specifically made 100 of these, all places where Andy Shepherd, the jazz musician, had gigged.

So I selected this one about 10, 12 years ago.

And the reason for me buying a modern sax, and specifically this one, is— I'll have to be honest— I work in a saxophone store, and I'm surrounded by these jewels every day, so, you know, the choice is just ridiculous.

And prior to that, I had another modern sax. It was a Selmer Series 3, which was doing lots of great things for me at the time, but then, for various reasons, I changed to this modern sax. Did you ever have a vintage sax? I've never owned a vintage sax. Oh, right, okay. So kind of going back to the— you know, how you were talking about how you started the instrument, you started on one when you were younger— for me, it was just what they had available during the— you know, in the school peripatetic systems. They'd bring out the sax out of the cupboard, and there's an old Holton or something like that. But I didn't care. I was just excited to start my, you know, venture on a tenor sax, and then it went from there.

And as we were just talking about a minute ago before we started filming, I bought my saxophone in about 1990, and the interesting thing is, it was only 16 years old when I bought it. I'm making myself look really old now. But we're talking about vintage instruments. But even buying a Mark VI in 1990, a late Mark VI, it's one of the last ones that were made. That's only a 16-year-old instrument. Yeah. It's not quite the same conversation as when we're talking about those vintage instruments now, in the 2020s, right? It's a whole different thing. Yeah, exactly. So I'm sure we're going to touch on that later as well. Definitely. So I think next, Jamie, we're going to hear a clip of you playing a vintage instrument. Yep. And then we'll take the conversation further from that. Awesome.

Sounding great there, Jamie. I mean, to be honest, just sounding like you, which is what I'd expect. It's, you know, you're playing an instrument here. It's not your actual Mark VI, which you explained, but it just sounds like your voice coming out there. It sounds like the saxophone is allowing you to do what you need it to do. Yeah. And that's the most important point of all, isn't it? And that's why I love playing my vintage horn, because it doesn't get in the way of what I feel I need to say, creatively, artistically. You know, when I'm playing from my heart, the sax is just— it feels like a tool to deliver it, rather than something I have to overcome. Sure. And it might be because of the ergonomics. It's— those vintage horns, they're worn in. The keys, even the, you know, the sort of pearls even feel smoothed out, almost after years of use. After how many years of doing this, are they dipped like an old staircase? Yeah. So everything's bedded in, it feels smooth, and it feels instantly comfortable under your fingers.

So the ergonomics— I love the ergonomics of the Mark VI. You might say that some of the older vintage horns, you might face a challenge. We'll maybe come to that later. But certainly with the Mark VI, no impediment to technique with the action, which I love. Each sax has got that wonderful story to it, which I love. The history. You don't know the history exactly. I know the history of my horn, and that could fill a book. But even if you buy a new vintage horn, there's history written in the very brass, in every scratch, every little ding. I noticed earlier that this one is worn down here, so somebody obviously played it by their side. Maybe they were a big band player. And these are the fun little things that you can deduce from the— doing some detective work— that you only get on vintage instruments. Whereas, you know, if you look at a Pie Moriart that you've got there, they're all going to look the same on the shelf. Sure. So it's interesting that you point out the kind of history and the excitement of the story, perhaps before other elements like the tone and the playability and the ergonomics.

But I guess you're going to move on to that next, right? Yeah. I mean, I can't deny the tone as well. So the thing I love about my Mark VI is that it just keeps giving, right at the extremes of what I'm trying to pump into it. Like, you know, a really hard gig, you're blowing and blowing, and you reach that threshold and the sound's about to break up, and it always just seems to open up that tiny bit more and accommodate that extreme moment. So I love that factor of the vintage horns. There seems to be no end to the wonders that they'll kind of provide you. If you want to explore something, they're there to offer that. Which is an abstract, subjective concept, but important to, you know, people who are creative artists, especially playing jazz. So I love that aspect of the flexibility and just the no limits to what it'll do. And that's kind of maybe a bit more specific to the Mark VI, where things were a lot more developed in comparison to those previous vintage instruments, which perhaps didn't have the advantage of being able to push the tone as much in the way you just described there.

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, sure. Okay. And so playability-wise, it's all going on for you because it's worn in, like you're saying. The tone's great, and it's the history. That's what really— those kind of three things, really. Maybe there's another thing there. And there's not, you know, maybe— let's also add on, there is the romance of seeing your favorite sax players and heroes play that exact instrument. Right. And maybe you feel that kind of vicariously rubs off on you a little bit. You see Train, you see Wayne, you see Brecker, and they're playing Mark VI, and you think, "Oh God, I've got to play Mark VI." I think that's an important point. People try and deny it. You know, they— we all love these great artists, and they try and deny that that's the reason that they're buying this instrument. But a part of you just wants to have a piece of that sound, right? Yeah. Like, if I just buy that Mark VI, I might sound a little bit like Sonny Rollins or whatever. But yeah. So I think that is definitely a strong element in the whole equation.

For real. Cool. Okay. So now I am going to play a modern sax, and we're going to discuss the various merits of playing modern instruments. Looking forward to it.

Sounding fantastic, as always, Jim. Nice one. It's nice to hear you in the flesh instead of on YouTube or in my headphones on a dog walk. Okay. Sounds great. Anyway, I've waffled on a little bit about why I love my vintage horn. Why did you go with the newer options? Well, I mean, the thing is, for me, my story really is very much linked to this place. You know, sax here, surrounded by these shiny instruments. And most of them are shiny because they're modern instruments. Yes, we have a small selection of vintage instruments like these ones here. But coming from my starting point was just starting on a basic student instrument, and that was fine. You're a teenager, you're just getting on with learning. But then, you know, starting up working in this store and being surrounded by instruments, not just the student ones, but the pro ones, where I was thinking, right, I need to save up for these top guys here because this is where it's at, really excited me at the time. So, yeah, my first really good saxophone was a Series 3.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, I just thought, well, it's the top Selmer, modern Selmer at the time. This is way before the Supremes and that stuff. And I was just very excited by it. But I did compare and contrast to all of the other modern instruments at the time, and that just gave me the sound I was looking for. So I didn't really have vintage saxophones in my mind when I was comparing— Did you compare and contrast it to vintage horns, though? That's the big question. Didn't I, to be honest, I didn't. We didn't particularly have, you know, a system of having vintage instruments in the store at the time. So it was very much just kind of focused on this. I must get the best modern instrument. And I knew all the reasons why, which I'll explain to you now. And I still believe in these, the rationale behind buying a modern instrument, which is that this is fresh, out of the manufacturer's. You've got the sort of the seal of approval, the guarantee, and all that. You know that if there's a problem with it, first up, this can be returned if need be.

I mean, that's a very rare thing. But just feeling, I mean, we kind of have the same association with other things that we might buy, right? If there's an issue, don't worry, this is brand new. This will get resolved. But it's just that feeling also of buying something brand new and knowing it's untouched. You know, you can flip it from the thing of, you've got the great story going on there with the vintage instruments to, no, I want that brand new, kind of untouched, look how shiny it looks coming out of the box. That has its own level of excitement. Well, if you went to buy a dishwasher, you wouldn't think about buying an old vintage one, would you? You want a brand new, shiny, perfectly working— You just don't think about it. Exactly. And I think the same thing applies with the saxophone. It's that feeling of that initial, no one's touched it, it's unscratched, and you look at it and you, you know, it just looks lovely. After a while, you don't really care. And I personally don't care.

I mean, I'll show you mine in a minute. It just looks like a vintage instrument, even though we're describing it as modern. So you've got that side to it. But then in terms of what it actually does for you as a tool, the really good, well-made modern instruments have great ergonomics, playability, all of this stuff. The manufacturers just have to think about it. They're all competing with each other. They know that the other guy, you know, if you're Yamaha, you're thinking you're competing with Yanagisama. They're not going to come out with an instrument that's below par, right? Everything's going to be laid out, broadly speaking, in a very comfortable position. And that is, generally speaking, what I find when I'm reviewing all these modern saxes, everything is, generally speaking, very comfortable. So I like that aspect. And then you've got the intonation as well. You know? Yeah, that's true. The intonation on the modern instrument in general. Again, it's the same thing. They're not going to put out a top-spec modern instrument with poor intonation.

Well, you've got a between, say, 30 and 70 years R&D from a Mark VI to a modern horn to improve. That's right. I mean, they're going to take that old Con 10M and think, we're not going to have sharpness in the palm keys. We're going to correct that, sort it out once and for all. So, yeah, I mean, then the other side to it is the sound that you get, you know, the modern sax. If people are going to criticize it, they might say, oh, I don't know. If they're a fan of the vintage horns, they might say, but I love that warmth and lusterness in the vintage sax. I don't like those knarky-sounding, slightly squeaky-sounding bright saxes. Big generalization, but right there. I don't agree with any of that. Because, yeah, you do, you can get those brighter-sounding modern saxes. But then at the same time, there's, you know, there's those vintage-inspired, for example, modern saxes where it's about trying to capture that warmth and quality of sound of the past, but at the same time apply modern ergonomics.

So, you know, you've got all that going on. But I think sort of the overriding thing in terms of the tone and what you can do with it on a good modern sax is the idea that you can really push it. I know you're saying on the Mark VI you've got that ceiling, you can just keep pushing it. It might well be true of a good Mark VI, but I think it's also true of a good modern sax, where really you can push it. You just push the air through it and it keeps delivering and delivering. Maybe not so true with some of those student instruments where that is where they're limited. You know, the tone can be great on a student instrument, but it might not deliver to the same scope as a, you know, a professional, you know, top Yanagisama or whatever. Now, what about, if you buy a vintage horn, you get what you get, don't you? You can't choose. If you buy a new one, you can, especially I'm thinking cannonballs, and you can customize to exactly what you want straight out the box. You can't choose a Mark VI.

You get what you're given. Isn't that an advantage of buying a new horn? Yeah, exactly. Choose a different neck, you can choose different key configurations, different finish. You can do, yeah, if you're going to go down that more sort of customizer route. But in terms of the general point you make about availability, everything is available. So, yes, you research something on the internet, you might buy it on the internet, or you might come down to a store like ours and try them all and all the rest of it, and you've got five modern saxes back to back, you get exactly what you want. But it feels just a little bit like a shot in the dark when we're talking about the vintage instruments. Now, that's a big advantage, admittedly, yeah. Sure. So I think that maybe that is an exciting point about, you can flip this around as well in terms of the vintage instruments, that it is that whole thing of it's the, you know, the rarity of them. It's that excitement of, oh, I think I've found one. This is the one for me, whereas they're everywhere, the modern saxes.

Yeah, that's true, yeah. Yeah, good points.

So I must admit, some pretty compelling arguments there for buying a new sax. But if somebody comes into an incredible shop like this, and they don't know whether to go down the vintage route, maybe they see this one on the rack, maybe they see that one on the rack. How does somebody choose between a good vintage horn and a good modern horn? What are the considerations here? I think that this very much comes down to the person that you're dealing with here. Because I would suggest that if you are a developing player, you've been playing just a few years, maybe you've got a student instrument and you think that it's, you know, you're finished with it and you want to move on to the next thing now, develop your playing somewhat. To me, it seems like moving on to a vintage instrument is a bit more of a risk involved. I think it's much more veering into, it's more of a pros tool rather than that developing community player, that sort of person, the hobbyist. Which is the majority of people, let's face it.

Those players who are, you know, they're aspiring to sound better, they want a good key action that's going to be, all of those things that we've mentioned so far. That's where I think that the reliability of the modern instrument really does service their needs at this stage. So you'd steer them down more that route, the sort of safer option. I think it's just safer. Yeah, exactly. I mean, okay, we've discussed that a Mark VI would probably beat some of those earlier instruments where you've got those real challenges with ergonomics. I mean, you know, even experienced advanced players will find that a struggle. If you've never played like a Boucher or something like that, and it's all been modern instruments, I would really struggle if I took a Boucher out on it on a gig somewhere. I'd have to spend a lot of time on it. So they are challenging. You really need to know what you're doing if you're going to move on to an instrument like that. But, yeah, I just think if you're that kind of player, it's much more of a safe option to go down that modern route for the reason that everything is just laid out perfectly for you.

You're not going to trip up at all. But we do, you know, you get those high-level players coming in, they can really play. They've got great chops, they know how to use their air and all the rest of it. And perhaps something like that will just give them that sound that they're looking for. Now, what if somebody came in here and said, I don't only want a saxophone, I want to make an investment which is going to pay dividends, because we haven't even mentioned that advantage of vintage horns. A Mark VI, you know, is only going to gain value at this point. Yeah, should it? That might change, but. Should it just be about an investment? I mean, I really do come from the point of view, this is a tool and you're trying to make music on it. I mean, when I bought mine, it was only 1,200 quid. I don't know how much is worth now. Probably six, seven, eight grand. So it has been an accidental investment. But some people do collect vintage horns. That is a very good point, actually. There's a big side to it, which is the collector side.

You know, I'm not naturally a collector-type person. I tend to have, I've got my soprano, my alto, my tenor. That's me. They all do the jobs. But there are plenty of people there, and you can just see it in their eyes. They love talking about the history, and they know all a lot better than me because it's their thing. And they love collecting those instruments, and they have plenty of them as well to tell the story. So, yeah, if that's your thing, then you would buy a Mark VI for that reason. Sure, yeah. Okay, well, lots of considerations there for people that are coming in, this whole kind of interesting stuff. So to summarize it, for the more kind of jobbing, hobby, community player, you'd steer them more towards a modern horn for the reliability. I would. But somebody who is maybe a bit more experienced and wanted that slight wildcard element, but maybe with a big payoff, you might steer them towards the vintage. Yeah, and I wouldn't even necessarily steer them towards it. It has to come from them.

So, you know, if they come in and they're asking about it, then great, try this. But at the same time, why don't you try it? Just like you did when we did that video some time back. Why don't you try it against these modern horns? You might be surprised the modern horn might give you what it is that you might, in your head, you might think it's all about the Mark VI or whatever. But then you might be surprised that actually the modern horn does deliver what you need. And just to kind of put a bow on this, I should say full disclosure, I'm not that guy who's saying only a Mark VI can give you that sound. And, you know, they'll never have that gun metal that they've melted down from World War II cannons or whatever it was. I'm not so, you know, invested in the mythology as some people are. And I do think that there would be a modern horn that I could sound just as good as the Mark VI. Sure, yeah. And I think we've actually proved it with that previous video we recorded. So thank you for that again.

Great. Well, this has been a lot of fun. It's been good to see you again. I'm sure we'll do another video in the months and years to come. We'll have another topic. But in the meantime, thanks for tuning in, and I hope you found this somewhat useful.

Vintage versus Modern